Mr. Silva recently published a link on CRN to this article. Now, there are those who have legitimate beef with the purpose-driven movement. These arguments usually talk about a lack of strong doctrine, a focus on methods over theology and pastors that have gone off the edge with the PDL campaign. These people would usually not call Rick Warren or his program apostate, semi-pelagian or man centered, but they would pass on the PDL for legit reasons for their church community.

Then there are those who have jumped on the anti-Purpose Driven band wagon and have abandoned logic in their arguments. Sandy Simpson has created a chart to help people figure out if their church is Warren Driven or Bible Driven. She automatically shows her bias with the title, as if they were in contrast.

I really don’t have much to say about the article. Here are some quotes — you decide for yourself.

Warren Driven
Is your church participating in Rick Warren’s “P.E.A.C.E. Plan” to “solve” the world problems of “Spiritual Lostness, Lack of Godly Leaders, Poverty, Disease, and Lack of
Education.”

Bible Driven
Does your church recognize that “The poor you will always have with you” (Matt. 6:11) and that making boasts (James 3:5) like Warren makes proves that he does not understand what the Bible teaches on these things?

Hmmm… does Ms. Simpson truly believe that the scriptures say we should not care for the poor, or share about what God is doing around the world with believers caring for the orphans and widows based off of these two verses? She doesn’t sound too bible-driven to me.

Warren Driven
Does your church believe, with Warren, that “Today, most local churches are sidelined and uninvolved when it comes to missions. The message from most mission and parachurch organizations to the local church is essentially “Pray, pay, and get out of the way.”

Bible Driven
Has your church continued to do its own mission work in its local area and support mission groups and efforts in other areas of the world? Does your church believe that most bible-believeing Christ-centered churches are NOT “sidelined” and “uninvolved” in mission work?

Um, are they not saying the same thing? Rick Warren is frustraited with churches have passed off their responsibility to do mission work in its local area and have an active part in global evangelism? Also, Warren did not say that Bible-believing, Christ-centered churches are bing sidelined. He said most church are. Oops, looks like Ms. Simpson may be more Purpose Driven than she thinks.

Warren Driven
Does your church “Statement of Faith”, like that of Saddleback, simply state regarding the Trinity that “God is bigger and better and closer than we can imagine”? (Note: Saddleback has since added another doctrinal statement to their site stating an orthodox view of the Trinity. This does not negate the fact that the above “dumb-downed” statement about God is basically useless, and in fact could be very misleading to people who already have a false concept of God.)

Bible Driven
Does your church doctrinal statement contain the concept that God is One God eternally existing in Three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

for the record, the complete “dumbed-down statement” from Saddleback’s section called Bible Q&A is as follows

The Bible teaches very clearly that there is one God not two or three or seven. It also teaches clearly that the Father is God and that Jesus is God and also that the Holy Spirit is God. The fact that there is only one God and yet three separate persons are called God leads us to the truth of the “Trinity” of God. This means that God is one in being, and he exists in three persons. That’s why Jesus can talk to the Father and be sent by the Father and yet they are still one. This is a difficult truth to grasp. I tell people that it’s one of the truths about God that reminds us that he is bigger than we are.

I’ll let you decide on the agenda here. It’s unfortunate that some have to go to this level to prove a point.

There has been a series of posts across the web that have made their way to Slice. They deal with the issue of whether or not God dreams. The general consensus of the ODMs is a big NO. God is all powerful and has no dreams of the future. This is especially true if it involves a dream that God gave Rick Warren to help cure aids and feed babies. It is even more true if Brian McLaren or Robert Schuler have a dream that God has given them

Well, that’s all good if you are a fatalist. If everything is set in stone, and the road map of eternity is unchangeable, then there is no need for God to have dreams for the future of humanity. But, in my world (and from what I pick up from scripture), God has so many dreams for the world. He dreams that no man should perish, but that all should come to salvation. He dreams that we would not resist the work of the Holy Spirit and would look more and more like Christ everyday. He dreams that his bride would be spotless for Him. He dreams that our true religion would be helping widows and feeding orphans. There are lots of dreams that I see.

Jesus himself wept over the city, because he knew that the sin of the people was moving them further and further away from the dream that God had for all humanity.

The truth is, even ODMs believe that God has dreams. They too believe that God dreams of a pure and undefined church. In fact, they see themselves as dreamkeepers and dreammakers in the grand scheme of thing. They are going to assure that the dreams of God take place with their wittings and warnings.

On a related note… one of Ingrid’s links was this post from Herescope. I didn’t agree with most of what the writer had to say, but found this quote interesting on a pretty cool prayer and fasting movement that is taking place.

The context for much of this activity is through food deprivation (fasting)

Funny how we change perspectives around for our enemies. If John MacArther called for a global prayer and fasting movement, the words “food deprivation” would have never been used. While the author did put “fasting” in parenthesis, I find their word choice very telling of their agenda.

Herescope only gives this as “the truth.” You tell me if this shows that God doesn’t dream

“Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD. (Jeremiah 23:3

2)

Thought this was an interesting quote from a recent interview of Ken Silva on CrossTalk

“What needs to be understood, Ingrid, is I am a pastor, that’s my function in the body of Christ. Whether I’m good or not, people can make up their own minds. I’m just stating a fact…
I’m using Richard Abanes as an object lesson, teaching here’s the fruit — this man is attacking a pastor!” (6:56 into video clip)

So, if people attack pastors, the fruit of their ministry is bad? Interesting. I wonder what that says about ODMs and Calvinism (since we’re making blanket statements that tie select people’s actions to a ministry ideology). Mr Pot, the kettle is calling.

We probably all know now that the apprising site is now back up. I must admit that it was a relief for my own ministry to have it down for a while. It just seems that we will have to contend for truth and a pure faith for a while longer. For the most part I sat back and watched the action on all of this, and was really proud of how CRN.info handled this situation. It seemed that there was a fair assessment of the situation, taking into account both R.A.’s and K.S.’s responsibility in the matter.

Having that said, I find it strange that all of the featured articles on the new apprising site are about raising money. In one post Silva mentions that he is soliciting churches to give him money out of their missions budget. Does Ken really see his work as evangelistic?

Ken Silva put out a short notice to his readers today. In it he addresses the Ray Comfort issue that has divided the ODM community all together. I found this quote particularly interesting

All I’m going to do is simply remind everyone that we were only critical of his decision and not of Ray personally or his ministry. So please do not let this issue become divisive us for us here or in the larger Body of Christ. I said what I felt led to say and Ray Comfort, who is a brother in Lord, has said what he felt led to say. Therefore we leave the issue is now in the hands of the Lord

I wish that same grace would have been extended to Rob Bell, Rick Warren, Erwin McManus, etc. when they partnered with people of questionable theology. It is interesting how our tone changes when we have to deal with people and situations closer to home. It is no longer “us vs. them”, but now “us vs. us” in the ODM camp.

I found it even more ironic that the next paragraph was Silva asking for prayer as he pursued more secular speaking engagements. This was then followed by a request for money, and an a paragraph in which he has to explain his often over-the-top tactics.

However, in today’s world this is often confused for personal attack and/or my being unapproachable and/or mean-spirited. But while I am very direct, anyone who has made the time to approach me quickly finds I am hardly mean-spirited but rather committed to God’s Truth as I see it.

It appears that as Apprising and CRN struggle for money in this failing economy, they must back track a bit in their methods. While Silva’s close friends may know the kinder and gentler Ken Silva, most of us only know the fiery writer/prophet that often leaves little to the imagination when it comes to his feelings about certain individuals in the Christian community. In my opinion, it may be too late to recover his reputation in order to finance his ministry

I woke up this morning to this. I have to say it wasn’t the best thought as I sipped my extra dry cappuccino at Pete’s Coffee and Tea. I actually began to feel incredibly sorry for the many people who read this and will actually believe it. I mean, imagine walking through life wondering if the purpose God has for you is a good one, or one that will lead to total destruction. How would that change how we live… in complete and udder fear of the future. I mean, life becomes one big turn of the dice. Will God give me a good purpose in life, or will He not?

You see, this is the God of illogical predestination. He randomly chooses some to have a good purpose in life, and randomly chooses some who will not. And, you will / can never know which one he will choose for you. We are simply pawns on some divine chess board.

Now, we may not have the ideal life by human standards. I am sure that Jim Elliot was not planning on being speared to death, leaving his family behind at such a young age. But was his purpose still good? Sure. Hundreds came to the faith. And, if you ask Elisabeth Elliot if she has any regrets over the situation, she would probably tell you the same. His life had a beautiful purpose. Pastor Martin Luther King Jr. was probably not planning on being assassinated. But the good and blessed purpose of His life has left ripples in eternity. For those that follow the Lord, there is a great purpose for our lives (and Rick Warren would agree that following God is the prerequisite for having a good purpose in life).

If course, the ironic thing is that most of the people who would hold to this view probably believe that they all have a good purpose in life. This poster and ideology would only apply to anyone other than themselves and their pack of Christian friends.

Over at Apprising Ministries, Ken Silva responds to a letter from a reader. Here are a few excerpts that are quite telling of his attitude when it comes to his status

The following is based on an unsolicited email I received here at Apprising Ministries. Please understand that I do not think any pastor-teacher is above reproach [insert typical Emerging Church whining here], etc. [emphasis mine]
What I wish to bring out is how easy, and I’ll argue arrogant as well, it is for people to simply disregard the teaching of someone like myself who has been studying the fields of apologetics, Comparative Religion and evangelizing non-Christian cults for 21 years….

You said: “I was very surprised to see your negative views on Christian meditation in the article CHRISTIAN MEDITATION WITH MANTRA: DOM JOHN MAIN.” So let me put it another way: I am very surprised to see you so quick in attempting to instruct someone like me whom Jesus has called as one of His pastor-teachers. [emphasis mine]

My dad always told me that you could tell alot about someone based on how they respond to correction or constructive criticism. This correspondence to Apprising was in no way instructional or a harsh rebuke. It sounded like an honest reader that was trying to understand where Silva was coming from. Most of the email was actually the reader asking him questions. But, Ken strikes back with his lofty credentials and how a man of his status should not be quickly instructed. How did Silva know that this reader had not spend some time looking at the Apprising articles and made an educated and simply inquisitive inquiry. On top of that, he sends such mixed statements: no pastor is above reproach, but people should not instruct someone who is a pastor-teacher in this manner.

Anyhow, this all too telling of the attitude of both Apprising and CRN:
We are educated, anointed and experienced, therefore we get to criticize whoever we want, whenever we want. And, you better not say anything about it.

A couple years ago, while I was teaching at an art & music camp on the Rez in North Dakota, several of the other volunteers and I (particularly the guy who hosts this website) decided to put together a music video in our spare time (primarily an evening break).

The song we chose was from a disc of songs submitted to Word Records by amateur acts (see this story for links to several of them) that never made it (if you listen to them, you’ll understand – particularly this one, whose chorus will put you in stitches).

Below is the result of our ‘hard work’:

While it contains a whole lot of ‘in-jokes’ from the week (which are never nearly as funny when explained), it served its purposes as some funny entertainment, and it also reminded us that sometimes we take ourselves way too seriously. (For anyone wondering, I’m the dude in the pool with a guitar)

As I get ready to head out to do another camp with this group of brothers and sisters – along with some more I’ve not met yet – and as I dust off the ‘demo album’, seeing the video was just another reminder of how sometimes it’s just good to take the time to laugh at yourself…

what happens when your poster boys for truth, doctrine and all that is good in the world begin to live a purpose driven life? Well, you have “no choice but to issue this warning to the body of Christ” [link added] Looks like Greg Laurie is joining forces with Rick Warren, and the ODMs are not too happy. This is one crazy case of guilt by association.

story submitted on our submissions page by Richard Abanes

That if you:

A. confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”

B. believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,

you will be saved.

-The Scriptures

Rick Warren’s Gospel presentation from PDL:

First believe God loved you and made you for His purposes. Believe that God has chosen to have a relationship with Jesus, who died on the cross for you. Believe that no matter what you’ve done, God wants to forgive you. Receive Jesus into your life as your lord and savior. Receive his forgiveness for your sins. So I invite you to bow your heads and quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity. “Jesus, I believe in You, and I receive You.”

John MacArthur’s required additions to the gospel presentation for salvation

* Repentance
* Know who the family of God is
* A sense of eternal judgment
* A discussion on hell
* Self-denial
* Laying down the law of God against which the sinner is broken
* A sense of guilt in the person
* Sense of condemnation in the person
* A fear of eternal torment in the person
* An understanding of God’s wrath
* The sinner should be crushed under the weight of his violation of the law of God

One might be guilty of laying it on a little light, the other just might be guilty of turning the already narrow road into a tiny beaten path. Let the crusades continue.