I really don’t want to bring the whole he said, he said between Ken Silva and Richard Arbanes back to life but I found this thread to be interesting in the comment section. Many were up in arms that RA would threaten to sue a “brother” in KS. Indeed, there is not agreement here amongst the writers on the entire issue. What makes this comment thread interesting is the team politics that is happening. You see, I think this entire thing is more about a “us” verses “them” mentality than anything else. According to Mr. Silva someone else has gone to him privately and asked him to alter a post or that person would have to go to Mr. Silva’s Biblical authorities. What has Mr. Silva done? He has refused to follow the Biblical mandate and simply said, “no.” I’ll deal more with that later. But I want you to read Mr. Chew’s comment. He is saying that the Scriptures don’t apply to KS because RA violated them. Later, he goes on to say that the Bible doesn’t apply to the situation he is talking about b/c he is talking about free speech. The reading is unbelievable.  For people who like to rail against the emergents they deem heretical because of gray areas it certainly seems as though they are making a run at a little ambiguity for their own benefit. At the end of the day I am convinced this is about team politics than it is about following God, Jesus or the Bible. It’s about preserving what they are comfortable with and having something and someone to fight against. Below is the quote.

Daniel Chew Says:
August 5, 2008 at 9:14 am

CD:

Amen.

Phil Naessens:

Pastor Ken broadcast this mess because the ISP threaten him with the removal of his website unless he removed that “offending” article. So there was real action involved which have implications for the entire issue of free speech as well. If Abanes would just threaten Pastor Ken, or slander him, then yes, he should have turn the other cheek. As for 1 Cor. 6 and Mt. 18, they do not apply since Abanes has already violated them in going after Pastor Ken.

There you have it. What else can be said really?

Thought this was an interesting quote from a recent interview of Ken Silva on CrossTalk

“What needs to be understood, Ingrid, is I am a pastor, that’s my function in the body of Christ. Whether I’m good or not, people can make up their own minds. I’m just stating a fact…
I’m using Richard Abanes as an object lesson, teaching here’s the fruit — this man is attacking a pastor!” (6:56 into video clip)

So, if people attack pastors, the fruit of their ministry is bad? Interesting. I wonder what that says about ODMs and Calvinism (since we’re making blanket statements that tie select people’s actions to a ministry ideology). Mr Pot, the kettle is calling.

We probably all know now that the apprising site is now back up. I must admit that it was a relief for my own ministry to have it down for a while. It just seems that we will have to contend for truth and a pure faith for a while longer. For the most part I sat back and watched the action on all of this, and was really proud of how CRN.info handled this situation. It seemed that there was a fair assessment of the situation, taking into account both R.A.’s and K.S.’s responsibility in the matter.

Having that said, I find it strange that all of the featured articles on the new apprising site are about raising money. In one post Silva mentions that he is soliciting churches to give him money out of their missions budget. Does Ken really see his work as evangelistic?

In an effort to gain some truthfulness in this whole ordeal between Ken Silva and Richard Abanes I contacted IPOWER to fully understand their stance on legal proceedings. During the course of my conversation about Apprising.org being removed from the web the very nice person I spoke with mentioned that IPOWER does not act on the advice of third parties in regards to the nature of any clients website. The woman I spoke with then directed me to their online User Agreement, specifically the indemnification section which states.

# Indemnification. User agrees to indemnify, defend and hold harmless IPOWER and its parent, subsidiary and affiliated companies, and each of their respective officers, directors, employees, shareholders, attorneys and agents (each an “indemnified party” and, collectively, “indemnified parties”) from and against any and all claims, damages, losses, liabilities, suits, actions, demands, proceedings (whether legal or administrative), and expenses (including, but not limited to, reasonable attorney’s fees) threatened, asserted, or filed by a third party against any of the indemnified parties arising out of or relating to User’s use of the Services, (ii) any violation by User of the AUP, (iii) any breach of any representation, warranty or covenant of User contained in this Agreement or (iv) any acts or omissions of User. The terms of this section shall survive any termination of this Agreement.

Essentially this means that IPOWER can not be held liable for any information contained on anyones website. In essence a letter served by a third party on IPOWER for a client would carry no weight and would “be disregarded as an idle threat”.

While IPOWER would not give me the specifics of the Apprising.org account the person I spoke with implicitly stated “We will not cancel or shut down any site based on the recommendation of a third party”

Perhaps we have a self created situation for publicity? I only pose the possibility; God knows the truth.

Before I write anything else on this particular topic, I would like to offer thanks to the Lord for what appears to be a long answer to prayer – that Ken Silva has apparently decided to have the Apprising “Ministries” (two lies for the price of one) website deleted by his ISP. With a few more answered prayers like this one, CRN.Info would either have no reason to exist, or would need a complete shift in focus…

Secondly, I really had no desire to write this article, but since I’m getting some feedback that “Silence can be taken as approval”, as the manager of this site I will take a few moments to comment on the recent row between Richard Abanes and Ken Silva. Since I really didn’t want to write it, you can count on the tone to be somewhat grumpy (having returned from a long week of vacation with a need for sleep). I would also specifically note that, while I am delighted that the Apprising “Ministries” website has been taken down, I take no delight in any personal misfortune that may be suffered as a result of it.

Here’s the Reader’s Digest Version:

Mr. Silva wrote a piece in 2005 that Richard Abanes and Rick Warren. In 2008, RA wrote a letter to Silva’s ISP about the article, asking for it to be removed to avoid having him consult his lawyers, as it was in violation of their Terms of Service. Silva’s ISP asked him to remove the offending article within 48 hours or have his blog deleted. Ken refused to alter the article, instead choosing the ill-fitting mantle of a martyr. True to their word, it appears that Ken’s ISP deleted his blog per his decision. (And there was much rejoicing)

I have to say, there’s enough legalism and cat-fighting in this tempest in a teapot to last both parties well into the next decade. There are several of principles at work here -

First, the principle of bearing false witness and slander. Regardless of legal technicalities of jurisdictional definitions of slander/libel, speaking an untruth, purposely misrepresenting someone else – especially a brother in Christ – is sin and is slander. As many have pointed, out, this is different than holding differing opinions. However, it WOULD include purposely misrepresenting someone’s opinions via prooftexting quotes, contextomy and other similar means.

With only a brief reading of the article which offended, I have no idea what material Abanes believed was libelous, nor (at least in the reading I’ve done thus far) does he seem to be willing to specifically identify the information. With that said, though, it is likely that even an objective simpleton could identify dozens (if not hundreds) of examples of actual slander/libel on the Apprising “Ministries” site, whether it be Rob Bell, Tony Jones, Rick Warren or one of his other frequent targets of derision. Score: RA -1; KS -1

Next is the principal contained in Matthew 18 – when one brother feels he has been wronged by another to first approach that brother before seeking other mediation. RA did not do so in this case, based on his assumption (which I have no doubt is a correct one) that Ken would give him a proverbial sharp stick in the eye for his troubles. However, because he ought to love his neighbor, and be charitable (per I Cor 13:7), the biblical principal of first confrontation ought to have been followed. However, it ought to be noted that Ken’s entire “ministry” is pretty much a public mooning of Matthew 18, specifically self-exempted by Ken on many an occasion. Additionally, rather than follow the course of Matthew 18 in response to Abanes, Ken unsurprisingly decided to play the part of the drama queen/martyr by needlessly falling on his sword. Score: RA -2; KS -2

Next we have the principal of solving brotherly disputes within the church, rather than through civil/legal authorities, found in I Corinthians 6. Abanes has exempted himself from this via some legalistic weaseling (he only threatened non-specific legal action, he didn’t actually use it), in complete avoidance of the spirit of the principal. Now, while at least one of Ken’s supporters has absolutely no leg to stand on with this particular principal, I’m not familiar with Ken siccing (or threatening to sic) lawyers on anyone. At the same time, I’m unfamiliar with any mediating authority within the church to which Silva would submit for such dispute resolution. Score: RA: -3; KS: -2

Finally (though I’m pretty sure I could find more, it’s getting late) we have the principal of submission to earthly authority per Romans 13:1. In this particular regard, I’m not familiar with Abanes violating this particular principal in the matter at hand. At the same time, we have Ken who is unwilling to observe the TOS he was in submission to by having iPower host his blog. Additionally, he appears to be unwilling to abide by copyright law regarding the posting of third-party email, as well. Score: RA: -2; KS: -3

So, in regards to both parties and their actions in the current matter, it’s pretty safe to declare both to be losers.

As for the First Amendment, which some have wailed and cried upon in this matter, there was no real applicability. Had Silva temporarily deleted the article and sought mediation, or had legal proceedings ensued, I am confident that the freedom of speech would have been upheld in the end.

In the larger scheme of things, though, weighing the pettiness and short duration of the matter vs. the deletion of the Apprising “Ministries” blog, I think we can affirm that all things work for the good for those that love the Lord, and that Christendom is much better for the “loss” (even if it is only temporary) of the cesspool of hatred, slander and legalistic hubris that was apprised, found wanting and deleted.

Oh the burden it must be to carry the duty of accuser. Ken in his on going campaign to establish himself as the purveyor of all things right continues to make the assumption that Ray Comfort needs his assistance. In his latest missive, No, Ray Comfort the issue is not closed, Ken let’s us know what a mistake it was for Way of the Master to not listen to him.

At first glance this would appear to be on target concerning the “issue” Comfort has now decided to close. The problem is that Comfort doesn’t get to close the issue because he isn’t the one who opened it. Unfortunately I did. Sadly, in my efforts to be a help privately CHRIS’ NOTE (accept for posting the whole dialog online) behind the scenes Ray Comfort’s personal assistant Mark Spence would later publicly attempt to impugn my motives and in the process let me know that WOTM wrongly assumed I was some “heresy hunter” looking for dirt with which to shoot down Ray Comfort. And that now turns out to be critical mistake on their part. (emphasis mine)

It all kinda reminds me of this story:

When Sanballat heard that we were rebuilding the wall, he became angry and was greatly incensed. He ridiculed the Jews, and in the presence of his associates and the army of Samaria, he said, “What are those feeble Jews doing? Will they restore their wall? Will they offer sacrifices? Will they finish in a day? Can they bring the stones back to life from those heaps of rubble—burned as they are?”

Tobiah the Ammonite, who was at his side, said, “What they are building—if even a fox climbed up on it, he would break down their wall of stones!”

Hear us, O our God, for we are despised. Turn their insults back on their own heads. Give them over as plunder in a land of captivity. Do not cover up their guilt or blot out their sins from your sight, for they have thrown insults in the face of the builders.

So we rebuilt the wall till all of it reached half its height, for the people worked with all their heart.

But when Sanballat, Tobiah, the Arabs, the Ammonites and the men of Ashdod heard that the repairs to Jerusalem’s walls had gone ahead and that the gaps were being closed, they were very angry. They all plotted together to come and fight against Jerusalem and stir up trouble against it. (emphasis mine)

Recently I told someone “I’m always suspect of anyone who starts a sentence with ‘The Lord told me that YOU need..’ ” Not that I don’t believe the Lord gives people insight into situations its that those phrases usually end after a tongue lashing and some variant of “As a sister/brother in the Lord” or “I really care about you”. Or as Ken puts it in his admonishment to Ray Comfort.

And as you read this once again consider that Comfort is using the same type of rhetoric he often uses in his WOTM presentation upon his sister in Christ who wrote him with a legitimate concern because she cares about him: (emphasis mine)

Tags: Ray Comfort, Way of the Master

Friends,

Good morning! It is a glorious Wednesday morning here in Northeast Ohio. My wife and I woke up early this morning–well, I did anyhow. I walked to the bathroom and washed my face and then down the stairs from my bedroom where I would meet with the Lord in prayer and Scripture. What I learned this morning is that the Lord was already speaking in His Word and that He was waiting on me to listen. Surprisingly, and much to my dismay, the the Lord got along quite well without me while I slept.

I want to begin this rather short post by first reminding everyone to continue praying for Jim Bublitz, Mrs Schleuter, and Pastor Silva among others. I did that very thing this morning and also remembered Pastorboy and Samuel Guzman (the nice young man from Reformata and Always Ready). I also prayed for CRN.info and asked the Lord to help me understand how the prophet Isaiah used the word ‘justice’ (KJV, ‘judgment’) in his preaching. Finally, while reading a small book Disciplined by Grace by J F Strombeck, I was reminded that

“Grace, then, is God’s provision to bring into being, sustain, and perfect His new creation in Christ Jesus. It is the operation of his infinite love on behalf of such as are worthy of everlasting punishment. This outpouring of God’s infinite love is possible only because Jesus Christ, by his death, fully satisfied the demands of God’s justice. As grace came by Jesus Christ, only those who receive Him are under grace.” (19)

Now, on to other issues, not nearly as important, but equally confounding.

I have been following rather closely the posts made by Mrs Schleuter at SOL concerning the so-called ‘Word of Faith’ at the inspiring excellence conference in Tinley Park, Illinois. I was actually rather surprised that Mrs Schleuter would attend such a conference after so roundly rejecting the invitation to attend a conference by Rick Warren. But I’ll leave that alone for now.

Actually, in my estimation, Mrs Schleuter has nailed it down with her latest post on John Avanzini. Those ‘preachers’ are hucksters and it is good that someone is pointing this out to people. Sadly, no one is taking steps to point it out to the people who are actually being taken in by these hucksters and I was a bit dismayed that at the end of her rather well written essay that she actually offered a link back to the Family Harvest Church so that her readers could implicitly support the Word of Faith movement by buying CD copies of the conference speakers. Hmmm. But I’ll leave that alone for now.

Here’s the point of my morning conversation with you. It seems there is a very low threshold of tolerance for orthodoxy when it comes to certain ODM’s. Do you know what I mean? I fully grant that Mrs Schleuter and others are dead on when it comes to ‘word of faith’ ‘preachers’ because it is so patently obvious that those preachers are not preachers of the Gospel at all. Frankly, my sons could make those sorts of discernments and judgments. What gets me is that, at Slice for example, everyone gets lumped into the same category. I wonder then if I can trust the discernment of Mrs Schleuter when, for example, the same criticisms that are leveled against Mike Murdoch and Robb Thompson are leveled against Rick Warren or Rob Bell or Ray Comfort or Doug Pagitt or (insert name of favorite Slice heretic).

Seriously. Is  it really so easy to lump together a World Harvest Church and a Granger Community Church? Is it really so easy to lump together all things Emergent with all things Word of Faith? Is it really so easy to lump together all things Name and Claim It with all things Purpose Driven? Is it really, gulp, so easy to lump together all things Health and Wealth with all things Roman Catholic? Do you see my point which is that if you are outside that small, narrow, myopic, Spurgeon, Edwards, Washer, MacArthur, Piper worldview then you are automatically outside of the possibility of God’s grace? Is it really so easy for people to dismiss the large majority of Christians on the planet just because they don’t see things exactly the way ‘you’ do? Is it really so easy to dismiss what the grace of God might be doing in the lives of others? Is it really so easy to sit back and make such judgments about people for whom Christ died?

I come from a church that has traditionally been a part of a movement called the “Restoration Movement” (even though for a good part of my life I was Methodist). You know what the hardest aspect of being in a Restoration Movement church has been? Allowing God to remove the mindset from my heart that believed I belonged to THE ONE TRUE CHURCH, that ‘our’ way was the only way, that ‘we’ had all the right doctrines and that if anyone didn’t belong to the Restoration Movement then they were simply lost. It was my job, so the mindset goes, to convert the heretic Baptist, the recalcitrant Lutheran, the wayward Methodist and to avoid the hypocritical Catholic and so on and so forth. What I learned a few years back was this: It is not my job to convert anyone (Thank God!). Rather it is the job of the Spirit to convert the heretic jerry, the recalcitrant jerry, the wayward jerry, the hypocritical jerry and so on and so forth. Ironically, one of the ways the Lord has done this is by putting me in communities where there are very few Restoration Movement preachers. My first preaching ministry in Brandywine, WV was in a town of 500 that had 6 or 7 churches: Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Brethren, etc. (There was even a female preacher in the next town over. That took a while too, but that’s another story.)  In my current location, there are other Restoration preachers, but my two best friends here are an Anglican priest and a retired Pentecostal Methodist. Both decidedly saved by the grace of God, and both ridiculously sold out for Jesus Christ. Isolation from same feathered birds has taught me about grace.

A lot of this is about maturity and growing up and taking Doctrine of Grace (TTH 560 at CCU). The thing is, God’s grace is evident and present in all sorts of places and ways. This is why, for example, there are 4 Gospel accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John) instead of one; we get the complete picture by seeing four views. This is why there were 12 apostles (or 13). You can’t tell me that Matthew the Tax Collector always got along well with Simon the Zealot! But, from 12 points of view, He gains a more complete mission. Matthew could minister to a group of people that the Simon could not and vice versa. Likewise with Paul, the Pharisee! It’s not that they shared everything in common, but that they held One Person in common: Jesus Christ. Ironically, in the Gospel, Paul wrote this: “There is one body and one Spirit–just as you were called to one hope when you were called–one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.” What he didn’t say is this: There is one opinion; one point of view. Here I tread carefully because this can be taken too far to the extreme. Some things are purposely ambiguous; we have to learn to live there.

This is true also of the ongoing efforts between churches of Christ a Capella and not a Capella to forge some sort of unity. In reality, all that needs to happen is for Christians to acknowledge the unity that already exists by virtue of the grace of God. As it is, two different congregations can reach two different groups of people: One that prefers musical instruments and one that does not. That’s just one (post) modern example. Fact is, I would have a hard time worshiping in a place like Granger on a regular basis and I would probably be left unsatisfied listening to Rob Bell every week. To me it (Granger) would be like Church camp every Sunday. I am much more comfortable in my tradition. But that doesn’t mean Granger is wrong or outside of God’s grace any more than it means John MacArthur’s church is right or has an inside track on God’s grace. It means they are different while being the same. It means that God has created them with red and yellow feathers and he has created me with blue and white feathers and still others have been made with red and green feathers. It means that where Christ is King, we are all different and yet all the same.

In conclusion, I will say this: If Mrs Schleuter or Pastor  Silva are right about WOF, this does not necessarily guarantee they are right about everything. And the problem is that they hold to a monochromatic view of God’s grace: all they see is Crows and not Birds of Paradise, Goldfinches, Parrots, Peacocks, etc. The God of Creation, however, made flowers, and animals, and a thousand different kinds of birds and trees and fish. So creative is He, so fascinated with diversity, that no two of us have the same fingerprint profile. He didn’t make one, but many; and yet many are also one. A fascinating picture of this is in Revelation 7 where from God’s perspective there are 144,000 Jews and from John’s perspective there is a great multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language. One; yet many. The same; yet different. 

What I’m asking for is more discernment in the way we discern. It is not right to lump all people together the way certain ODM’s do. And the sooner clearer distinctions are made, the better. Does this mean every single Emergent church pastor is among the wheat or sheep? Nope. But neither does it mean that every single Spurgeon toting, Washer quoting Reformed church pastor is either. What it means is that every single one of us is dependent upon the grace of God. What I am asking, pleading for, is that grace find a way to insinuate itself into the online discernment ministries and conversations. As I said in a reply yesterday, God could have given us straight-forward Levitical law type instructions about the church. But he did not. Some things He left purposely ambiguous and sometimes I expect He did so precisely because He wants to see just how much we really love one another and how much we love Him. Or maybe He has a sense of humor and likes to see us trip all over ourselves in our efforts to ‘Lord it over’ one another while Jesus remains enthroned at His Right Hand.

Soli Deo Gloria!

jerry

PS–Poor Ray Comfort. The man cannot win for losing. Everyone is on his back now and all he really wants to do is love God and people and share the Kirk.

Tags: grace, Inspiring Excellence Conference, love one another, ODM Policies, Revelation 7, Word of Faith

Ken Silva put out a short notice to his readers today. In it he addresses the Ray Comfort issue that has divided the ODM community all together. I found this quote particularly interesting

All I’m going to do is simply remind everyone that we were only critical of his decision and not of Ray personally or his ministry. So please do not let this issue become divisive us for us here or in the larger Body of Christ. I said what I felt led to say and Ray Comfort, who is a brother in Lord, has said what he felt led to say. Therefore we leave the issue is now in the hands of the Lord

I wish that same grace would have been extended to Rob Bell, Rick Warren, Erwin McManus, etc. when they partnered with people of questionable theology. It is interesting how our tone changes when we have to deal with people and situations closer to home. It is no longer “us vs. them”, but now “us vs. us” in the ODM camp.

I found it even more ironic that the next paragraph was Silva asking for prayer as he pursued more secular speaking engagements. This was then followed by a request for money, and an a paragraph in which he has to explain his often over-the-top tactics.

However, in today’s world this is often confused for personal attack and/or my being unapproachable and/or mean-spirited. But while I am very direct, anyone who has made the time to approach me quickly finds I am hardly mean-spirited but rather committed to God’s Truth as I see it.

It appears that as Apprising and CRN struggle for money in this failing economy, they must back track a bit in their methods. While Silva’s close friends may know the kinder and gentler Ken Silva, most of us only know the fiery writer/prophet that often leaves little to the imagination when it comes to his feelings about certain individuals in the Christian community. In my opinion, it may be too late to recover his reputation in order to finance his ministry

I woke up this morning to this. I have to say it wasn’t the best thought as I sipped my extra dry cappuccino at Pete’s Coffee and Tea. I actually began to feel incredibly sorry for the many people who read this and will actually believe it. I mean, imagine walking through life wondering if the purpose God has for you is a good one, or one that will lead to total destruction. How would that change how we live… in complete and udder fear of the future. I mean, life becomes one big turn of the dice. Will God give me a good purpose in life, or will He not?

You see, this is the God of illogical predestination. He randomly chooses some to have a good purpose in life, and randomly chooses some who will not. And, you will / can never know which one he will choose for you. We are simply pawns on some divine chess board.

Now, we may not have the ideal life by human standards. I am sure that Jim Elliot was not planning on being speared to death, leaving his family behind at such a young age. But was his purpose still good? Sure. Hundreds came to the faith. And, if you ask Elisabeth Elliot if she has any regrets over the situation, she would probably tell you the same. His life had a beautiful purpose. Pastor Martin Luther King Jr. was probably not planning on being assassinated. But the good and blessed purpose of His life has left ripples in eternity. For those that follow the Lord, there is a great purpose for our lives (and Rick Warren would agree that following God is the prerequisite for having a good purpose in life).

If course, the ironic thing is that most of the people who would hold to this view probably believe that they all have a good purpose in life. This poster and ideology would only apply to anyone other than themselves and their pack of Christian friends.

Over at Apprising Ministries, Ken Silva responds to a letter from a reader. Here are a few excerpts that are quite telling of his attitude when it comes to his status

The following is based on an unsolicited email I received here at Apprising Ministries. Please understand that I do not think any pastor-teacher is above reproach [insert typical Emerging Church whining here], etc. [emphasis mine]
What I wish to bring out is how easy, and I’ll argue arrogant as well, it is for people to simply disregard the teaching of someone like myself who has been studying the fields of apologetics, Comparative Religion and evangelizing non-Christian cults for 21 years….

You said: “I was very surprised to see your negative views on Christian meditation in the article CHRISTIAN MEDITATION WITH MANTRA: DOM JOHN MAIN.” So let me put it another way: I am very surprised to see you so quick in attempting to instruct someone like me whom Jesus has called as one of His pastor-teachers. [emphasis mine]

My dad always told me that you could tell alot about someone based on how they respond to correction or constructive criticism. This correspondence to Apprising was in no way instructional or a harsh rebuke. It sounded like an honest reader that was trying to understand where Silva was coming from. Most of the email was actually the reader asking him questions. But, Ken strikes back with his lofty credentials and how a man of his status should not be quickly instructed. How did Silva know that this reader had not spend some time looking at the Apprising articles and made an educated and simply inquisitive inquiry. On top of that, he sends such mixed statements: no pastor is above reproach, but people should not instruct someone who is a pastor-teacher in this manner.

Anyhow, this all too telling of the attitude of both Apprising and CRN:
We are educated, anointed and experienced, therefore we get to criticize whoever we want, whenever we want. And, you better not say anything about it.