Source: Russ’ Ramblings

Comments: Russ listened to one of Ingrid’s podcasts where she ridicules modern/contemporary music performed by Christians, and then plays a hymn so that everybody knows what ‘acceptable’ worship music is. Russ takes issue with this, but the comments he left were not posted, to the surprise of almost nobody, since they were not in agreement with Ingrid, nor were they mockable contrary views.
Memorable Quotes:

I say ridicule because she laughs as she plays a section of music and then states that these songs made her “Hall of Shame.” I also agreed that one of the songs was of poor quality. The other song however had solid lyrics and a well-rehearsed group of musicians playing behind them.

Alas, this song (her term for it was “circus music”) also made the “Hall of Shame” because it induced “gyrations” because of the beat and therefore was unworthy. This lady closed her podcast playing a hymn after talking for several minutes on how this hymn was acceptable as worship music while the other two examples were not.

—

Source: Verum Serum

Comments: Scott notes that Slice has decided to take a break from all-Rick-Warren-all-the-time coverage briefly to criticize a church that uses dance in its worship. He then proceeds to agree that modesty is important, but that there IS Biblical precedent in using dance to worship the Lord.
Memorable Quotes:

OK, Ingrid, we get the point. Anything that isn’t like your church is bad, and anything that doesn’t match up to your expectations is bad, and anyone who does things differently than you do is bad. And certainly, any church that is using dance in some way CAN’T be worshipping Biblically and CAN’T be using Scripture and the preaching of the Word properly. And it goes without saying that nobody who dances in church or who supports the use of dance would be prayerful in their Christian life.

—

Now obviously, we don’t know what David’s dancing looked like, nor do we know what kind of dancing Solomon had in mind in Ecclesiastes or what the Psalmist(s) had in mind when mentioning praising God with dance. BUT…we do know that dance is mentioned in a positive light and as one of the useful “tools” for worship, praise and celebration.

But I guess, since dance isn’t practiced in Ingrid’s “stodgy” church, it shouldn’t be practised in any form in any church.

—

[Scott replying in comments] She rails against contemporary worship and longs for the good ol’ hymns of her youth, but ignores that those hymns were railed against by the establishment and authorities of the day. When her favorite hymns were penned, those songs were called “hymns of worldly composure” and were deemed man-centered because of the introduction of the human experience and first person perspective.

She freaks out about churches meeting in movie theaters, but ignores the fact that Charles Wesley’s church was called The Foundry because it met in an old, converted foundry…which again really bothered the establishment and authorities of the time who felt like such a building wasn’t appropriate for the proper and respectful worship of God.

She and Ken spend the bulk of their time discussing the evils of Rick Warren, Rob Bell et al, but spend very little ink discussing how the fruit of Warren’s Saddleback church carries far more weight with it than does her feeble attempts at trying to point to something that is wrong with his theology. For the most part, they ignore the fruit (1000’s of baptisms, hundred’s of home studies, 1000’s of church members going out and ministering to the needy, etc) and just try to cover it all with a lame characterization of the fruits as “suspect conversions.”

—

Source: Russ’ Ramblings

Comments: Russ posts a rebut of Ingrid’s ascetic view of dancing, along with laments about missing/unapproved posts. He also notes that the legalistic views don’t take too kindly to contextual use of scripture.
Memorable Quotes:

I do feel badly for these legalists – life seems to have no joy for them, but their Pharisee-like approach I guess makes them feel good. Of course they will deny they are like the Pharisees, they are discerners and out to call out all that is wrong in Christendom. I really should let them go and continue in their holy huddle – they don’t want to listen to other Christians who have a differing point of view.

—

Source: Verum Serum

Comments: Here, Scott dissects the Slice (in particular Ingrid) view of music within the church.  This is probably one of the best articles on this subject, as well.  The comments (there’s almost 100) meander a bit, but also end up drawing Ken and Chris P. into the fray, as well.
Memorable Quotes:

Going back over the last couple months, Ingrid and her peeps have thrown up many posts that reference music in one way or another. Most, if not all, of these slam contemporary music and worship styles in favor of the “good old music” of hymns (and hymns pre-1850 seem to be their songs of choice). Ingrid typically makes a statement like this:

When I hear of churches comprised of Christians with mohawks, body piercings, and worship music that sounds like a rehearsal for hell, I am concerned.”

Or this:

This music is hatched in hell itself. It is the sound of spiritual revolt against all that is holy and true. It is spiritual rebellion against God.

Or this (in reference to the worship leader at Saddleback Chruch):

What does it take to be a “top worship leader”? Does it mean that your congregation has the coolest worship moves? Does it mean you have the biggest attendance, the best riffs on the guitar? The best bump and grind moves up there with the house worship band? The hottest selling CD or the most downloads on the web? … There are no band leaders mentioned, no jiggly females, no writhing and twitching and no screaming audience members throwing their fannies and their arms around.

Call me crazy, but I’m guessing that any music that wasn’t composed for a church organ makes Ingrid nervous. Or perhaps she has forgotten that at some point, even the church organ was viewed as the “worldly interloper” into the sanctity of the church.

—

Deceptively, SLICE throws up the occasional example of the ridiculous (such as their recent posts regarding Showbread and Zombie Gutz) in an effort to portray most/all contemporary Christian singers/song writers as shallow, brain-dead morons with little or no talent. Ingrid points to the fringe in an attempt to condemn the entire genre. And of course, as always Ingrid and her SLICE-posse use this fringe (which are admittedly sad, lame, and even dimwitted) in an attempt to draw some sort of connection to the Seeker Sensitive/Emergent Church and movements.

—

Christ the Lord is Risen Today was written in 1739 by Charles Wesley when he was 32 yrs old. He wrote this hymn in celebration of the first service held in London’s first Wesleyan Chapel. This chapel was also known as the Foundry Meeting House, because it was created out of an abandoned foundry and metal works. Wesley purchased the building to house his growing number of converts to the Christian faith. Many in the “establishment” objected to his use of such a “worldly” building for the purposes of God, but he proceeded with his plans anyway.

(Interesting that the SLICE peeps don’t have a problem with a foundry being converted to a church, but they sure do take exception to a movie theater being used for the same purpose.)

—

One last time…by the SLICE standard, Isaac Watts would have missed the mark. He was young, advocated the personalization of the worship experience, advocated a departure from the traditional forms of worship (the Psalms), was denounced by church leaders on both sides of the ocean, and was the cause for church splits rooted in the controversial and radical use of his new ideas.

—

[Chris L. commenting] The article you linked to is another one that just follows Ken’s current kick of using “letters” from “other people” to try and make his points (since he has been woefully short of any new anti-Bell material, of late). Apparently quoting dead theologians is no longer as “convincing” as quoting nameless letter-writers. (When he actually named a writer earlier this year, he was embarrassed when the living, named person criticized him for taking his words out of context.)

—

[Chris L. commenting]  Laz writes:

so you don’t agree with her that there might be (however minute) anger and hatred towards Bell in your theses?

I guess the better question would be, is there love in your rebukes?

Ken writes back:

Laz,

We’ll have to let the Lord be the judge of that but thanks for your feigned concern.

And to answer your question: I am expressing the same love for Bell’s doctrine as expressed by John the Baptist here:

[contextually abused/misused KJV quote omitted]
[emphasis mine]

And so it is that Ken automagically makes an ad homenim attack on Laz, assuming that his concern is a false one.

I went and checked out Laz’ blog, and I would hazard a guess from the posts (and Slice on the blogroll) that Laz might agree with Ken some of the time, and that his concern was probably real.

I guess when you’re a misguided pit bull, you’ll bite the friendlies along with everyone else.

—

[Reposted comment from Slice] This posting and most of the comments thereafter are a perfect microcosm of this website. It is very difficult to argue with this kind of logic:

“I know what the scripture says and how to interpret portions that others disagree about or struggle with. God has told ME clearly what is right and wrong. The Holy Spirit has revealed to ME what is truth and heresy. Anyone who disagrees with ME (because God has told ME these things) is therefore in disagreement with God.

“No one has a more revealed, truthful perspective than ME, and if anyone disagrees with ME then they are obviously disagreeing with God. Knowledge of Truth is only obtained through methods I know about and agree with and if I disagree with your methods, it must be because God disagrees with them. God’s logic is perfectly understandable to me; it has become my own logic.

“God spoke to certain historical men clearly and completely, but He does not speak to other men clearly or completely today, unless they are men whose perspectives agree with ME. I read the Bible literally except where God has revealed deeper meaning to ME.

“If you are a person with whom I generally disagree or if you are associated with another person or movement whom I have already deemed to be heretical, then I will examine your statements and tell you what you mean, even if my interpretation was not your intended meaning. If we disagree, I will not give you an opportunity to answer questions, but instead I will immediately begin proclaiming your heresy from the highest rooftops. I know what you mean better than even you know what you mean, because God has revealed this all to ME.

“If you and I disagree, I am obviously right because I know God better than you know God. I know God’s nature, methods, and Spirit better than you know those things. God has given ME and those who agree with ME the ultimate discernment to pronounce Truth and denounce heresy. I will quote Scripture and tell everyone if God has shown me your interpretation of the same Scripture is incorrect.

“I will make generalizations about people and groups because God has revealed to ME their true natures. I will see the motives of people’s hearts just as God sees those motives, and I will tell everyone what I see. Perhaps you do not even know your own secret motives or deceptions, but I can see them and I will reveal them to you because God has revealed them to ME.

“I will be the champion of the faith and preserve the traditions that God has shown ME to be correct.

“Do not disagree with anything I have said, because the Bible is MY final authority and if you argue with ME, you are disregarding the Bible’s authority and are, therefore, a heretic.

“You are obviously not correct, but I AM.”

[ASIDE: Is this not the ultimate pride? If I hold these inflexible views, do they not place me in violation of Commandment #1? Perhaps having no other God before God does not include the God of SELF, when I proclaim that my own understanding, logic, and truth are those of God himself?]

“If you post something on my website which disagrees with ME or anyone with whom I agree, I will delete it as God has labeled it a dissention among our bretheren.”

I guess we’ll see how long this stays posted.

—

Source: Verum Serum

Comments: Scott posts on Ingrid’s use of an early Orthodox hymn, and the sheer irony of her doing so, as it is part of the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church, whose beliefs would send them to he fires of hell, if Ingrid and Ken’s version of theology were correct.
Memorable Quotes:

On SLICE today, one of Ingrid’s posts (interestingly enough) quotes a 4th century Orthodox hymn. I say “interestingly enough” because in any other context Ingrid and her cronies are quick to condemn Catholics and those with Catholic-like beliefs to the fires of Hell (or the condemnations of “Reverend Ken,” whichever comes first).

—

Source: Verum Serum

Comments: Slice (Ingrid, in particular) began having siezures in response to reports that some Christian college students are known to drink and smoke (in addition to the sun rising in the morning, and the sky being blue).  Scott and John give a bit more seasoned response to the situation, along with correcting some of Ingrid’s Victorian-era sensibilities.
Memorable Quotes:

A recent post over at Slice of Laodicea titled “On Hookahs, Emergents and Booze Aplenty” caught my attention a couple days ago. It begins by bemoaning the use of alcohol by students attending Christian colleges and seminaries, which I agree could be of concern (though I don’t know if all students who attend Christian schools of higher education and who also drink should be called “drunken sots” as they are in this post).

This Slice post then goes on to connect such behavior to the Emergent Church movement (of course…that particular devil is always hiding somewhere at Slice). The writer (Ingrid) lumps behaviors like drinking, smoking, etc together and then she sums everything up this way:

Some of us have looked at postmodern theology and wondered if it wasn’t crafted while under the influence of something. Perhaps now we’re getting a clearer picture. Frankly, this is disgusting. If these guys want to live like the world and the devil, do it. Don’t drag Jesus Christ into it. Take your choice but you can’t have both.

Obviously Ingrid’s opinion is that there is only one logical conclusion: anyone who drinks or smokes is living like the devil and couldn’t possibly be a “real” Christian. And of course her conclusion is based on exactly NOTHING from scripture. That’s right, there are exactly ZERO Biblical references to support the perspective that Ingrid and Slice want to advocate as being essential for being a real Christian, in this case that the use of alcohol and smoking are indicators of spiritual depravity.

—

Source: Bob Blog
Comments: Bob posts a video from a Saddleback worship service that included elements of dance. Ingrid has a cow over on Slice and posts the video. The video owner pulls the video. Ingrid cries ‘conspiracy!’. Bob laments Ingrid using his site for research purposes…
Memorable Quotes:

Let me quote myself from that post: Not to get too critical or anything… and… uhh… at the risk of having this video show up on Slice of Laodicea…

Well, it did. And then promptly was taken down by the owner, no doubt because of the flood of comments from people calling bad dancing by teens in matching outfits “Baal worship”

—

Source: To the Tune of Tim
Comments: Tim was (briefly) a great commenter on Slice, someone with excellent reasoning abilities and obvious compassion. As you can most likely guess, he didn’t last all that long before he was banned for disagreeing with Ken’s company line that Donald Miller is a unregenerate heretic. Tim has an incredibly well-written description of his being kicked out of the ‘lifeboat’ of Slice.
Memorable Quotes:

My most favorite song of his is called “Jesus is for Losers”. In an interview that I saw from the first ever Christian music video program, filmed in Pittsburgh, the host Tom Green (not the MTV guy) asked Steve Taylor how he came up with the song. Steve responded, as only Steve Taylor could, that he was sitting on the toilet reading a magazine about how a porn star became a Christian, and his initial reaction was “Great! That’s just who we need representing…” and he stopped himself realizing that if Jesus isn’t for the people who are living completely opposite of what God wants, and if Jesus isn’t for the people at the end of their rope, and if Jesus isn’t for the poor, the hungry, and so on, then who is Jesus for? He wouldn’t be for me because I have it altogether, right? Unless I recognize that I, too, am a loser (aka sinner).

—

The responses were either labeling of me or further name-calling of Miller and the church community with whom he lives and worships. Pressing the point further did not motivate the author to return to the actually questions I ask, simply to walk away saying we wouldn’t agree so what? One commentor chastised me for being disrespectful, which was quickly refuted by another saying: “Tim has presented the most coherent, and I think respectful, critique of Ken Silva, a man who regularly disrespects and maligns “ordained pastors” himself, that I’ve seen on here in a while. Give him a break.“

—

I did not receive notice that I have been banned, just that when I try to post, I get an error saying that I am not allowed to comment. So just as there is an avoidance to constructive challenges or dialog, there is also an avoidance now of any dialog.

My first reaction was short anger. This lasted approximately 2 seconds. My next reaction was laughter, not as in a joke, but in a realization of irony that something I said must have been too true. My third, and longest, reaction was contemplation, wondering what is was exactly that I said that got me kicked out of their lifeboat.

—

Source: Lone Prairie Art Works

Comments: As Ingrid reminds us on Slice, hymns (preferably those written before 1900) are the only proper way of offering worship in song to the Lord.  In support of Ingrid, Julie adds a sixth sola for the Truly Reformed crowd…  I’m certain there is no sarcasm to be found in this post, as well…
Memorable Quotes:

The sixth sola has, for too long, been ignored: Sola Hymn.

Hymns are the music of the angels. They had been waiting hundreds of years for the early church to shove off the lutes, flutes and tambourines in favor of serious organ chords, five verses and a chorus. Though I have yet to make it to heaven and hear the music there, I’m pretty sure it’s a hymn. It’s only a matter of time before the church around the world in other cultures and countries adopts our European music stylings and sees that it’s time to put down the drum and the oud and the didjeridoo and pick up a chord progression and a couple of ‘thees’ and ‘thous’. God hears those chords and words best above all other music in the world, my friend, and we need to sing our theology in full every time we worship.

—

If you’re feeling so moved in your worship that you can’t even find the words to express your love for God in your heart, there are two things to remember: 1) avoid the Pentecostal trap of speaking in tongues, and by all means 2) find something deep to say about substitutionary atonement and forgo overly vapid phrases of “I love you, Lord” that want to spring from your mouth, and anything similarly fifth grade level. Rise above your baser instincts of simple expressions of love and faith and fight the good fight of five verses and a chorus with two measures that are just a bit out of your vocal range.

—

Because hymns lift my soul, they surely must be lifting yours as well. Because it is part of my culture and I am comfortable with it, it is the right way to worship God. If you don’t understand this, you must be part of the lost generation and I pray for your wayward soul to get back in the hymnal. Because I don’t like that other kinds of music and worship out there, I’m pretty sure your heart isn’t right when you sing it and you’re not truly worshipping, after all. Because I am naturally reserved and more comfortable that way, so ought you be.

—

Source: Fishing the Abyss

Comments: Following her usual modus operandi, Ingrid has a cow (breech, no less) over a Christian dance festival to be held in Michigan. She throws out one of her famous straw men – how can people go to a dance festivel when there are 42 million babies in America who have been aborted? Huh? (There are just some people who aren’t happy unless they’re not happy).

Chris took Ingrid’s article, changed the subjects around and the topic to blogging (instead of dancing) to demonstrate the absurdity of Ingrid’s premise (perhaps she was channeling the spirit of David’s wife, Michal?). Just to make the irony even greater, Ken demonstrates that he has no understanding whatsoever of the conept of irony by posting a comment to the article.

Priceless.

Memorable Quotes:

Yes, the world needs legalistic Christian Bloggers in a “most urgent way”. As we stand knee deep in the blood of 46 milion aborted American children, and as the foundations of our nation shudder and heave, Christians need a nit-pick, nit-pick, nit-picking revolution. Friends, the true church of Jesus Christ is not interested in blogging at this late hour. This is no time for podcasting. This is a time for repentance and contrition and prayer.

—

["Reverend" Ken Silva] “the true church of Jesus Christ is not interested in blogging at this late hour.” Pardon me Chris, but aren’t you blogging to tell us you’re not interested in blogging?

—