Archive for the 'Worship' Category

Source: Bob Blog
Comments: Bob posts a video from a Saddleback worship service that included elements of dance. Ingrid has a cow over on Slice and posts the video. The video owner pulls the video. Ingrid cries ‘conspiracy!’. Bob laments Ingrid using his site for research purposes…
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Let me quote myself from that post: Not to get too critical or anything… and… uhh… at the risk of having this video show up on Slice of Laodicea…

Well, it did. And then promptly was taken down by the owner, no doubt because of the flood of comments from people calling bad dancing by teens in matching outfits “Baal worship”

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Source: Russ’ Ramblings

Comments: Russ takes the side of the oppressed when Slice decides to bully up on a young church that has decided to rent out a movie theater for their weekly worship services. When the church become a building and not the people in it?
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Why are they piling the sarcasm and snark on this group?

  • Not because they’ve evaluated the statement of faith of the church.
  • Not because they know that that pastors have a wrong view of theology
  • Not because they even know the people who are taking the risk to start this church

Because they have chosen to meet in a movie theater…

[reposted comment from Slice] Hey, yeah…! In fact, why not just SHOW a movie! Yeah! Then all the people wouldn’t have to feel like they were at a church service at all! I mean, why not get rid of all that stuff that makes them uncomfortable EMOTIONALLY… you’re already getting rid of the physical discomforts. The best thing you could do is make sure people feel good about their lives. People need to be encouraged to do their own thing, not to get held down with a lot of guilty religious talk. What a super idea!

Goobers instead of Galatians…
Red-hots instead of repentance…

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Source: Russ’ Ramblings

Comments: Russ had a great time at a Promise Keepers event, unaware that it was part of Ken’s Ecumenical Church of Deceitâ„¢. He found Slice and the bash-fest going on there in regards to PK, and was saddened. He did have a good response, though, to the view that young- or non-Christians must have to such legalistic backstabbing as is so evident at SoL.
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It’s a lovely messy world we live in — it’s messy and lovely because of the diversity and the unique testimony God is creating in each of His people. Sign me up for messy — to borrow a line from a Steve Taylor song, ” Cloneliness is next to Godliness, right?” (tongue firmly planted in cheek). Life would be so completely, absolutely BORING if we all thought the same way and said the same things and did the same things….

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Source: Verum Serum

Comments: John dissects the Slice view on the only way one can ‘do church’, eschewing laughter, music written while anyone currently living was around, and personal stories by pastors.  He uses two articles by Ingrid contrasting a ‘God-centered’ and a ‘man-centered’ (in her view) church.
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I’ve written about that divide before using some definitions of those terms I found on another site. As I said then, the terms themselves are loaded. In fact, it seems to me that they are little more than code words for a type of church or a particular way of doing church that the Slice authors don’t like. This includes churches that use rock music or praise hymns, pastors who tell jokes, etc.

She mentions “hand shaking, back slapping, and occasional loud shrieks of laughter” as if these are out of place at church. Later, she mentions a series of jokes by the pastor. She obviously feels these are out of place as well. Again, I’m fine with her holding that opinion. My problem is when she crosses the line and suggests that God holds it too.

To invalidate personal anectdotes as teaching tools is to invalidate most of the Bible itself.

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Source: Verum Serum

Comments: Part of the hue and cry at Slice is that modern theology is “Man-Centered Theology”, and that anything that brings pleasure or laughter has no part in the church.  John dissects this idead and puts it to rest as only being “wishful thinking” of these modern acetics.
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First off, these are loaded terms. Man-Centered Theology is an oxymoron. So you immediately get the sense that, if both terms were to appear on an exam, it would be unwise to choose the one that sounds sketchy and self-defeating.

Or consider fellowship. God clearly establishes the church for the purpose of believers gathering to edify one another. But this begs an obvious question. If theology is ideally God-Centered, why do we need fellowship at all? Why can’t we just focus on God at home? Wouldn’t we be more efficient without all the distractions presented by other people? And here again, I don’t believe fellowship is simply a “work-around” in light of our sinful nature. Had man not sinned, there still would have been fellowship among men and women. It was part of the design. It was good and also enjoyable.

I believe the core problem with GCT proponents is that they often seem to see our existence as a somewhat grim, zero-sum game. Under this view, anything which is not God-Centered, anything which is merely human, is in effect a moment stolen from God. I find this wrongheaded. Worse than that, I find it dehumanizing.

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Source: Verum Serum

Comments: John’s first article on Slice, spurred on by Ingrid’s need to identify the Beast of Revelation, whether it be the Catholic church, the Evangelical church, or the Purpose Driven Church…
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Last week, Slice of Laodicea wrote a post comparing the Catholic church to the “beast” of revelation. Andy Jackson of SmartChristian sent out an e-mail notifying a few bloggers about this and asking them to comment. Tim Challies wrote a post which essentially argued there may be something to this claim. In response, I and several others including Joe Carter at Evangelical Outpost responded that this was ridiculous.

Slice of Laodicea followed up their Catholic Beast post with one stating that the beast could just as likely be the evangelical church. Then Ingrid (the main writer at Slice of L) went a step further and actually put out a call for stories bashing Rick Warren and his ministry. Staring today, we have the fruit of that effort. Ingrid is posting the responses she’s received.

Purpose Driven churches are like Stalinist Russia? Good lord, woman. Stalinist Russia was officially atheist. To be caught reading the bible meant a trip to the gulag. Is this really an appropriate comparison for Rick Warren’s minsitry?

I hate to burst her bubble, but there is no Chrstianity apart from the local body of believers, the ekklesia. There are no spiritual “lone rangers.” Ingrid presumably has enough theological education to know this (Heb. 10:25), but is happy to overlook it in order to further her attack on Rick Warren. Something is very wrong here.

I wish the author of the letter (and Ingrid) could mature to the point where differences over music style are not the end of fellowship. Just because they can’t worship God to praise choruses, doesn’t mean no one else can.

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Source: Musings from Two-Sheds Gomer

Comments: This is part of Brendt’s “Lies that Will Kill You” series.  While it does not appear to be pointed specifically at Slice, the similarities to the watchblogosphere it defines are rather evident.
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If I may paraphrase Jesus’ parable of the Pharisee and the publican (tax collector):

The legalist stood and prayed thus with himself, “God, I thank Thee that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this sinner. My hair doesn’t toucheth my collar; I listen only to music that is at least 300, nay 400, years old; my wife hath never worn pantaloons.”

This, to certain people, is the definition of true spirituality. According to this belief, if one takes care of the externals, everything is fine.

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Source: Musings from Two-Sheds Gomer

Comments: Brendt attended an incredibly worshipful night with Michael W. Smith, Third Day and others.   The sin?  It was sponsored by Chevy.  Therefore, according to I Hezekiah (or at least Steve Camp), worship could not have happened there.  Brendt takes issue with this assessment.
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Not content to simply allow something like this to happen, there were voices of dissent because (in an uncommon move) the tour was sponsored by Chevrolet. No voice was louder than that of Steve Camp. In his analysis of the situation, Camp begins by stating that “I want to affirm my love and prayers for Michael W. Smith, Third Day, and Max Lucado”, then proceeds to cruficy them. (See also, “with friends like these…”) This tactic does not seem to be uncommon for Camp, who also will make self-effacing remarks about his past, and then rip someone else’s present. I guess that Camp considers himself to have arrived and that Galatians 6:1 is not applicable.

… if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness …

This, of course, assumes that Camp is one of the “you who are spiritual”. But I digress.

Camp’s polemic is filled with strawmen, largely based (apparently) on some divine knowledge of others’ attitudes, thoughts, and feelings. Where non-existent (and therefore, very easily refuted) issues are not employed, mischaracterizations of situations and misinterpretations (or, at least, misapplication) of Scripture is used. One example would be the statement:

The fact that this is an “evening of worship and evangelism” — their language, not mine -means that we have now actually digressed to charging people money to worship the Lord.

Uh, no, Steve. “We” are charging people money to be a part of a particular event during which there is the hope and prayer that worship will take place. Just like I was charged money for your concerts back in the 80s. Even if this is dismissed as Camp’s past, he is alleging that I was incapable of achieving genuine worship at his concerts. I’m not sure who this insults the most — me, Camp, or God. And lest we classify this as solely the past, please be aware that Camp participated in a cruise earlier this year, for which people were charged a lot more than my ticket to that concert cost. By Camp’s argument, no worship must have occured on that ship either.

Camp quotes these verses…

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

John 15:18-19
18 If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.
19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

…and then uses them to claim that any level of acceptability in the world means that the Christian is doing something wrong. The converse to this argument is that disfavor by the world indicates that you’re doing something right. But it could just mean that you’re a booger-head

But, let’s not rely on my interpretation. I’ll close with one more Scripture.

Isaiah 55:11
So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

In short, you can’t get in God’s way, even if you try.

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